Houses in Kemnal Road
November 2008 - a note from Jerry Bourne
I grew up on Edgebury Estate (68 Imperial Way) and remember the Kemnal area well. Kemnal Lane did used to have two big gates (always open) on the A20 end. Directly over the A20 was a small field with cows in it, which I believe was once part of the Kemnal estate. There are houses there now.
The entrance to the “Dock Labour Board” used to be graced by the remains of a bombed house which I believe was another “lodge” house to the Kemnal estate. Indeed, the road from it used to lead right up to the “Tudor House”. The “Tudor House” had a small orchard at the back of it and a high wall. A small field (which horses were subsequently kept in) went from the wall, to the back of the occupied lodge house and to the side of Kemnal Lane. It was over this wall that we used to “scrump” apples and pears, hopefully without being caught by the lodge keeper. The lane used to have electric lights up one side of it but these were destroyed by vandals early on in the fifties. I remember Kemnal Manor before it was set alight by vandals. It had cellars underneath and out-buildings that were once used by the army. I believe that there was once an army cadet force using those buildings. There was rumour that it was used as some sort of military training area during WW2, but this was unsubstantiated.
As kids we got into the cellars and found some “odds and ends” such as a large felling axe, a massive cut throat razor made of wood (an old barbers sign perhaps or a stage prop). We also used to go looking for lead, which we sold to Cook and Bakers Scrap Metal Merchants in Sidcup. The black pond was the ultimate play area. Originally it was oval in shape with a large island to one end surrounded by a deep ditch that came and went back to the pond. Gil Neave and I used to chop trees down to make a bridge over that ditch and then tightrope walk over to the island. If you fell in though, you landed in 18” of water backed up by 4 feet of the foulest smelling black mud that you could ever imagine. It would take a lot of effort to get you out. As kids we were told that Lord Kemnal’s son was a lone child and that he wasn’t allowed to play with other children. The rumour had it that he used to spend hours in his little boat rowing around the black pond. One day he fell out of his boat and drowned and his ghost was supposed to be seen on the water or by the pond. A complete load of cods wallop, but that was the story at the time. We used to ride our track bikes around that pond. The bikes were home built, from old bike bits from the “Tip” or “Cook and Bakers” scrap merchant. Some of them had a fixed wheel which meant you had to keep peddling because if you forgot and tried to stop, you got thrown over the handlebars. The lodge keeper spent many hours telling us to get out of the property. When we got a little older (10-12) we used to bait him mercilessly. He knew all our fathers (so he said) and would be round to see them! The pathway (Dead Mans Alley) that leads from Kemnal Lane through to the old Beaverwood race track, is supposed to be recorded in the Doomesday book. The path from Kemnal Lane to Belmont Lane (end) evidently had the body of a murdered woman found on it in the early fifties (unsubstantiated). The body of a man was found murdered in Kemnal Lane itself in the early sixties.
The “Whitehouse” was everything from a “Nuclear Bunker” to “HQ of MI5” when we were kids. We got in and found ourselves crunching about on the skeletal remains of birds that had flown in through the vents and not been able to fly out. Kemnal had beautiful woods attached which my father would use for his bean sticks. I would go with him to cut them as a child. I believe we used to nickname them Bluebell Woods because of the abundance of Bluebells that grew there. The whole of Kemnal was an absolute paradise for young kids growing up and venting energy.
August 2008 - Two contributions this month:
First from Gordon Hutchings:
I chanced on your excellent website while doing something else that had led me to look at Kemnal Road on Virtual Earth - and at first I thought that my old home - Trees [along with Nizels and Walden] had been demolished!
Very glad to see that it has not - and delighted to find that part of Trees can be seen on your home page. [Apologies - not now, following a redesign.Ed]
I lived there with my parents - Col (Reggie) and Mrs (Jean) Hutchins - from 1958 to 1965, when I married. They moved back down to Budleigh Salterton in Devon, where there were family connections, in 1967 - so must have sold to the Smarts (though I don't recall the name). Have no recollection of who preceded us in 1958, but I was interested to see the name Cashford, as I was at university (St Andrews) with Juliet Cashford, whose home was in Chislehurst - not Kemnal Road but Heath End, Bromley Lane.
I well remember seeing Charles Williams and his wife and daughters, though we never really got to know them - he clearly loved his garden (I must admit that from our upstairs vantage point, we inevitably overlooked them and their comings and goings. I think he drove a green Mercedes!).
When we moved into Trees, Walden was occupied by Cdr (Peter) and Mrs (Madge) Waldram, and Peter Waldram's sister - Wendy, I think her name was. He was with the Admiralty, and they moved to Bath in 1963. He was a fine pianist, and I used to love hearing his Mozart and Beethoven rising from below.
The Devereux then arrived - we knew Mrs Devereux as Rita not Margaret. They had a son and daughter: my recollection is that the son was Alan, but my sister seems to think he was John. I forget the name of his sister. I am almost certain that Howard Devereux died suddenly before my parents retired to Devon, but Rita Devereux did stay on - my mother kept in touch with her for many years.
I well remember the Great Wall: it faced you as soon as you came out of our front door, but after a while you took it for granted. I would never have thought of it being 'listed'!
The other things I do recall - amidst many very happy memories of Trees and Kemnal Road - are the gate into Kemnal Woods at the bottom of our garden (ours was beyond the Walden garden), and the magnificent copper beech just behind Trees and Walden, which appears to be still flourishing from what I can see on Virtual Earth!
Finally, I was also interested to see that Peter Harding was an Old Alleynian - as I am! Not sure I've located Woodheath Cottage: it isn't the house opposite the entrance to Trees, is it? [No, it was within Queenborough Gardens, but now sadly demolished]
Gordon Hutchins
And from Mrs Sarah McClements:
I am very interested in your website. I believe my Great Grandmother was in service to a Mr & Mrs Ashworth around 1910 at Kemnal Wood. My Great Grandmother had passed on stories of her life in service at Chislehurst and now we are interested to find out more.
How did you find out a Mr Thomas Ashworth lived at Kemnal Wood?. I would be grateful if you have any information regarding this family. I can then compare it against my details to make sure we have the same family.
May 2008 - Wendy Henderson provides some interesting information regarding two families in Kemnal Road:
First of all congratulations on a great website. Apologies if you already know this but Catherine Beatrice Hawes, the wife of Alexander Travers Hawes was the daughter of Henry and Harriet Honey the owners of Wyvelsfield? I have been researching the Honeys and another of their daughters died relatively young. Clara was married to Henry Gardiner and lived at Hurstmead in Eltham - I wonder too if she is buried at St Nicholas? Will try to find out.
Catherine's death notice Times Tues 24 March 1891; On 23 inst at Nizels, Chislehurst aged 36, Catherine Beatrice dealy loved wife of Alexander Travers Hawes and youngest daughter of Henry Honey of Wyvelsfield Chislehurst.
Incidentally: Hawes was grandson? of Dr William Hawes the co-founder of the Royal Humane Society and in the family tradition was a Chairman of the Society. His son Roderick 'Roddy' was Chairman too and died May 30 1980 (as far as I know was still a Chislehurst resident) He was educated Eton and Oxford. Joined the Royal Artillery TA and reached rank of Colonel in WW2. Was mentioned in Despatches and awarded the Order of Orange Nassau and the Croix de Guerre.
Best wishes Wendy
January 2008 - Colin Webster has written to us with the following recollection:
"I grew up during the 1960’s on a small estate just north of the A20. Kemnal Road and the surrounding area provided us children with endless adventure. The derelict Kemnal Manor itself was probably our biggest draw, we always had the feeling we shouldn’t have really been there and used to frighten each other with various made up stories about the ghosts that were supposed to haunt the old building. It could be very spooky there, especially as darkness was setting in on a cold wet winter afternoon.
To the west of the Manor towards Kemnal Road I remember a wooded area which led to a very large pond/small lake. The area around the pond must have been at one time some kind of ornamental garden, as at certain times of the year you could see flowers emerging which were obviously planted in some kind of order. I particularly remember large beds of snowdrops and then later on in the Spring the beds of daffodils. Also in the wooded area adjacent to the pond was a grave with a headstone (probably that of a much loved pet.) The inscription read something along the lines of “for dear old bob until you and your master are reunited”.
Near the Dock Labour Board sports ground behind a brick wall which could be seen from Kemnal Road was a dilapidated two storey house with very tall chimneys which we used to call the “Tudor House”. Do you know what this house was called? There was an overgrown apple orchard near this house, back up towards the Manor.
The Horse Chestnut trees north of the Manor adjacent to the dock Labour Board sportsground provided us with bag loads of conkers during the autumn months. Around 12 years ago I took my own children to collect conkers from the same trees. We walked along Kemnal Road from the A20. It was a lot narrower than I remembered. We reached where the lodge used to stand at the entrance to Kemnal Manor, the road was so overgrown I hardly recognised it. The pond I mentioned earlier was completely silted up and the gravestone was gone.
I hope this is of interest to you.
December 2007 - Michael Pinchon has written with some recollections:
I have a few offerings, not much, but as the saying goes, ‘every little helps’.
I first came to the area with my parents in 1958; moving to Woodside Avenue in 1964. Our house backed onto the allotments, (now overgrown). My younger brother went to the scout hut, (as did my daughters), which was located on the bend of the pathway, from Belmont Parade to Kemnal Road. (apparently it is known as Kemnal Lane today, but we did know it as that). I notice that the hut has now gone. Most of my school friends lived on Edgebury Estate and as a consequence we would roam the fields and woods of the area. It was quite common for dozens of kids to have fun here, and we considered it our patch so to speak.
The path running from Imperial Way to Kemnal Rd was tar-mac and well used; the tenants of the estate using it to walk down Kemnal Rd to Marechal Neil parade, (named after a former house on the site), and the 21 Bus. My grandfather, (who lived in Slades Drive), and others would also use this route to visit the ‘Charcoal Burner’ pubic house. As a consequence Kemnal Road was well trodden, and there were even street lights, although I do not recall them ever being alight. After the A20 was duel - carriaged this ‘walk’ was no longer used and as a consequence the road has become over-grown. However one can still see how the thoroughfare was laid out with its trees, which must have given it a shaded avenue effect. The gates at the A20 end, which still stood in the late 60’s, seem to have gone.
The Lodge near the junction of this path was still occupied in the 1960’s; I know as the occupier used to chase us off occasionally when we intruded into the grounds of the Manor. The effects of the fire were still fresh and we would climb up on the roof and into the ruined rooms. It must have been a magnificent building once, but I was young and did not appreciate such things then. The driveway from the Lodge had a sweeping bend to it, the grounds having lush shrubs and non-native trees, although I recall some large oaks. There was a building to the north near the fence with the National Dock Labour Board sports ground. This is now overgrown and is invisible from the road behind the rather large horse manure heap. This area may have been an orchard, as I recall a number of pear trees.
A little way along from the Lodge, in the grounds of the Manor, is a pond, now almost overgrown. We called it the ‘Black Pond’, and the rumour was that someone had drowned there. A small boat could be seen on the pond from the road for years.
The Bunker was called the ‘White-House’ and we would squeeze inside via the steel door, which was stuck a-jar, striking matches to see our way. As I recall there was not much to see. In the grounds of the Manor amongst the trees were some huts. We called this ‘the Lost Village’. We were chased by some dogs there. Apparently this was where the police often trained their dogs. A friend of mine who was a police dog trainer confirmed this some months ago.
The narrow path that runs up the side of the Bunker and over the fields to Beaverwood, was known to us as ‘Deadmans Alley’ I don’t know why. It was well trodden, and not overgrown as now. The path running from Kemnal to Belmont Lane was, and still is Belmont Lane. Apparently it was the original track to Kemnal. Today the width is reduced due to it being overgrown, but in the 60’s one could still see the kerb stones and metal fence of the original. We would duck through the fence here and walk across the field to a pond, we called the ‘Banana Pond’, (in the grounds of Foxearth), where we would fish. The route of the old school in Edgebury, (now houses), cross-country race was via these two paths, then over the style at the end of ‘Dead mans Alley’ and across the field to the A20 and then left back up Kemnal Rd.
A friend of mine used to live in Bothy Cottage on Home Farm, when it was a working dairy farm. Kemnal Rd was un-made then, and much pitted, although the occasional car did use it as a short-cut to the A20. At the top of the road were some very grand houses. A short distance down ‘Kemnal Lane’ on the left from Foxearth was a large red-brick house we called the ‘Red House’. I think the original name had been Magdelene. This was empty and we would gather there and use it as our ‘den’ so to speak. The old wall of this house still stands today.
I had a school friend of the name of Drage, who lived with his mother in one of the cottages on White-Horse Hill. I recall he told me that the Drage’s had at one time owned several cottages on the Hill, but had lost them over the years. I wonder if he was related to the Drage family who lived in the Lodge at Kemnal. Another lad at the same school was called Neave. He lived in the farm, and so the farm was known by the local lads as ‘Gilly Neave’s Farm’.
Andrew Barton has also written me a short note:
I just came across your site.....The house next to Holly Bowers, called Holly Bowers Lodge, (latterly Holly Lodge) was my home from 1962 - 1973.....I knew the kids next door at Holly Bowers, and the ones at Mapledene, and Mulbarton Cottage, and North Lodge, and South Lodge, and Foxbury and Coach Lodge and Forest Ridge, Kemnal Wood and Woodheath. If there's any historical info from that period that you need filling in I'd be happy to meet sometime - I live locally. [I have since met up with Andrew, and he has sent an extended note of his recollections, which are on a separate page. Click here to access them.
October 2007 - Geoffrey Goemans
I have spoken to Mr Geoffrey Goemans, who is the son of Horace Goemans. Horace (pictured right with his wife, Gladys) was the land agent at Homewood and Foxbury. Geoffrey has let me copy a number of photographs of the estate, and provided some important information about the Tiarks family and the Foxbury estate.
Horace Goemans was appointed as land agent by the Tiarks after the First World War. He had been gassed during the war and was recommended to find a job where he would be in the open air as much as possible. He met and married Gladys Ladd, who was working at Foxbury as a maid, and they lived at Homewood Lodge, now the West Lodge on Old Perry Street. In her diary, Agnes describes the wedding day on July 30 1921: “Wedding of Gladys Ladd and Horace Goemans at 12. A very nice quiet service – plenty of nice relations on each side – no chattering and no music. The Rector read it all so softly. Emmy and Frank, Edward and Mark, Aggie and I. Frank went to the breakfast – and then came here.” The marriage had been announced in April, and Agnes notes that they each received £5 as a wedding present.
Geoffrey mentions a number of interesting matters relating to Foxbury:
The swimming pool and polo stables at Woodheath were separated from Woodheath and incorporated into Foxbury before Frank sold Woodheath. There was a roadway through the old grounds at Woodheath which led into Foxbury; Horace Goemans and William Palmer before him lived in South Lodge, whereas Alfred Bunce, a golf pro lived at North Lodge. Horace had only one child, Geoffrey, and after he married, he and his wife lived with his parents.
Mr Lucas, who lived at Bothy Cottage, was the estate carpenter. Mr Anderson lived at Woodheath Cottage before the war, so it was not first converted into a house by Mr Harding; Frank continued with polo and Gymkhana events at Foxbury and Homewood until 1936. He kept his hounds at Homewood, and there is a picture of Mr Goeman’s cousin with two of the hounds.
There was a nine link golf course around the polo pitches at Homewood, and the pitches were used as driveways; The present spectator stand was built by Barts. The stand built by Frank was a much smaller affair, and is no longer around; There was a small corner of land near Home Farm that was used as the pet cemetery.
After Frank had moved into Foxbury, he had limestone rocks brought up from Loxton to put around the ponds. These can be seen in some of the pictures; Mr Goemans has an architectural print of Foxbury, and also has a print of the oil painting of Frank in his city clothes.
After Frank left, largely due to his wife being an invalid, there were plans to build extensively on the estate. Foxbury Avenue was created, and sewers laid but at the last minute, the area was declared Green Belt. Substantial compensation was paid to Foxbury Estates Ltd. Other roads in the estate were laid with tarmac under the direction of Horace Goemans.
March 2007 - Anne Page
I have been contacted by a great-granddaughter of Henry and Agnes Tiarks. She has at least some of Agnes' diaries, and her mother Anne, then aged 87, lives in Bromley. I went to visit Anne on 13th March.
She is the only daughter of Nellie Tiarks, who married Athole Murray. Anne was born in Torquay, but moved to Chislehurst in 1922 when her mother was summoned to Foxbury to assist in looking after Agnes who was very ill. She was too young to remember much about her grandmother, but Anne has memories of the family. Aunt Aggie was Anne's godmother, and was very good to her, taking her on holidays to Cornwall, on a cruise to Scandinavia, and to Stratford-on-Avon to see Shakespeare plays.
Anne remembers that Sophie was very active locally in Chislehurst, running the boys club. Agnes and Sophie lived together at St Peter's Lodge in Holbrook Lane and later at Camden Close. They quarreled a great deal with each other and with their sister Nellie, Anne's mother. Anne knows the picture of Agnes and three children which is shown on the website. For many years she had a copy of it, but it is now gone, possibly to America. The children, from left to right are Sophie, Nellie and Aggie.
Anne recalls that Frank didn't like Foxbury very much and spent much time in London, where he had a house in Tong Court Kensington. Anne says that Frank's wife, Emmy, was somewhat eccentric ("she was half German and half Spanish") and that she insisted that all the bed linen and bath towels were washed every day. Anne visited Frank when he was in Loxton, and after his death spent weekends with Noreen. She still recalls with some horror the murder, since she had been down there not long before it happened. Anne believes that Noreen was schizophrenic, and recalls that when Noreen died, the family objected to her being buried alongside Frank.
As to her other aunts and cousins (Anne was one of 23 first cousins), Alice lived at Farnborough after Arthur Lubbock died; Edith travelled a great deal with George Booker her husband, who was in the army, though latterly they lived in London. Edith and George had a daughter, Rachel, who married Colonel Richardson. Rachel, Anne's cousin, had two daughters, one of whom "was a little wild, and moved to Paris, never to be heard of again", and the other settled in Kent. Matilda, who married Percy Hare, had one boy, Hugh, and four daughters, Joan, Sybil, Victoria, and Lisla. Hugh was a delicate boy and later lived in the South of France with his mother. Percy Hare, called Uncle Puck, was regarded by Anne as something of a scoundrel, and it was rumoured that he spent much of his wife's money. Finally, Rica (as Frederica was known), was a lovely Aunt. She and her husband Michael Hodges were charming, according to Anne. They had one daughter, Betty, and four sons, three of whom, Michael, John and Dick, went into the Navy. David was the exception, and he became an architect, involved in the design and building of Brighton Marina. Rica moved to Bromley after her husband died. She remembers Peter, her uncle, and Pamela Silvertop living at Foxearth, which she liked. She recalls skating on the lakes there in the winter, but she lost contact with Peter's family after he moved to South Africa.
Finally, she recounted an anecdote about her grandmother Agnes. She was renowned for her absent-mindedness, and occasionally made social howlers as a result. One evening she and her husband were entertaining the Broadwood family who lived near to Chislehurst. They were still involved in the family business which was piano manufacture (Indeed there were two Broadwood pianos at Foxbury in 1911), but in those days, you did not discuss trade at such occasions, and Agnes would have been told by Henry not to refer to the Broadwood's piano business. After dinner, during which Agnes had been very good and not referred to pianos or piano manufacture, the butler came into the drawing room to advise Agnes that the Broadwood's carriage was now waiting for them, and Agnes declared "Mr and Mrs Broadwood, your piano is waiting outside!".
I have also had an email from Andrew Belsey, whose mother has lived for most of her life in Chislehurst.
"In the 1950s my mother ran a nursery school, first at 79 High Street (now Sainsburys), then at Fairfield (now 32), Willow Grove. Thus she knew many parents who were keen on their post-war children having pre-school education. The Kinders lived in Green Lane before Kemnal Road and had five children, three of whom were at the nursery school. The Hardings also had children at the school. My parents were also friends of the Dunns and often visited them in Kemnal Road.
I have tried to persuade my mother to write down something about her life, but she expresses unwillingness, saying her memory isn’t up to it. Actually, there’s nothing wrong with her memory, for she also produced the following.
After WW2, Sophie and Agnes Tiarks were living in Holbrook Lane. When Arthur Battle retired he bought a house in Holbrook Lane. Because he was trade, none of the residents would speak to him, except the Tiarks sisters who treated him like any other neighbour because “they were real ladies.” (Told to my mother by Mr Battle.)
After we moved to Chislehurst in 1945 my mother would take me (born 1942) and my sister Jane (1944-1986) to the clinic at the top of Red Hill. There we would be weighed by Sophie Tiarks. We think she was unlikely to have been in paid employment, and so think that this must have been her voluntary contribution to the community.
Once when my mother was in White and Bushell, the hardware shop on the corner of Park Road and the High Street, Sophie Tiarks was sitting on one of the bentwood chairs that were placed by the counters for the convenience of customers. Sophie pointed to the opposite corner where stood Martins Bank (now Abbey) and said “I can remember when there was a tree growing there.”"
January 2007
Valerie Yorke (nee Cox), who lived at Hoblands in the mid 1950s has contacted me and offered to send information and photographs of the house and her family,
Peter Kirk, who played as a boy in Kemnal Manor grounds:
"As a kid we used to cycle everywhere and we came across the derelict manor by accident (possibly 1965/6?). I remember walking inside it but there were no floors so you could see down into the basement and up through the roof. I though the staircase was still there but as I don't remember going upstairs it may be just the sides. Walking round the grounds there were high chain link fences possibly with barbed wire on top. Scattered around were hut frames (I thought they were metal Nissen type) and a little cottage type building (not the lodge). There were a lot of telephone cables running from the house to the road and the Pagoda ornament was still there and used to carry some of the cables."
Connie Birchall, who now lives in Devon, who recalls that she used to ride the horse owned by Mr and Mrs Tostevin. "I used to ride their horse and cycled up and down Kemnal Road for most of my childhood ( I lived in Willow Grove ). Any info to help find them and thank them for such a times would be appreciated. I should think the horse is dead but he was a fine fellow."